PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

News from the Pro Evolution / Winning Eleven gaming world, discussions from the posts on WinningElevenBlog.com and general PES & WE discussions

PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby danny275 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:52 pm

Continue...

Last Post:
miguelfcp wrote:If you think you can assess how realistic the reproduction of football in a game is through a couple of youtube videos showing goal highlights, then you absolutely deserve the product you currently have.
danny275
KMN Staff
KMN Staff
 
Posts: 19350
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:58 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:46 pm

This whole idea that Konami only deliver us the product we have now, because it's what we deserve, due to some lowered set of expectations, is also, it has to be said, laughable! Konami, have always made the product they want to make, B-Man has stated this a few pages back, why is that so hard for certain "hard core" to take on board? It shouldn't be. It's always been that way, and to think otherwise is self grandeur in the extreme.

Edit: Obviously the use of "hard core" here is in the ironic, piss taking, prodding sense (PES Casual style), as they are no more hard core than the millions of others who are 'still' regularly, actually playing the game.
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Nik778899 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:33 pm

Pesmunki wrote: Konami, have always made the product they want to make


They certainly do, which shows how they've let their own standards drop.
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby miguelfcp » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:38 pm

What part of my statement was illogical? If your expectations are low and you demand mediocrity instead of greatness, what kind of product do you expect to get? And no game developer works in that autistic way you just described, particularly in current day's free market. They make the product they think people will want to play and pay for it.

And the idea that that PES' current market is unified as there are no differences between online-first and offline-first players' expectations shows a complete lack of touch with reality. No wonder you can't understand why many old-school, hardcore, long-time-playing, pre-online-days, Castolo-loving, whatever-you-want-to-call-them-players are struggling to follow Konami's vision.
miguelfcp
Mascot
Mascot
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:48 pm

Nik778899 wrote:
Pesmunki wrote: Konami, have always made the product they want to make


They certainly do, which shows how they've let their own standards drop.


Do you seriously believe that the producers, the developers, the higher ups (as the B calls 'em), sat in the Konami board room and said, tell you what guys, our strategic vision for PES when we move to the new engine on PS3 is to "let our standards drop"?

I don't.

Which makes your post laughable. Again. ;)
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm

miguelfcp wrote:What part of my statement was illogical? If your expectations are low and you demand mediocrity instead of greatness, what kind of product do you expect to get? And no game developer works in that autistic way you just described, particularly in current day's free market. They make the product they think people will want to play and pay for it.

And the idea that that PES' current market is unified as there are no differences between online-first and offline-first players' expectations shows a complete lack of touch with reality. No wonder you can't understand why many old-school, hardcore, long-time-playing, pre-online-days, Castolo-loving, whatever-you-want-to-call-them-players are struggling to follow Konami's vision.



There's so much wrong with your post, I'm not sure where to start. But I'll have a go.

Firstly, it was you that made the connection between the consumers low expectations and the product Konami delivered, I didn't.

I don't think for one minute they have responded to some fictional low expectation from the buying public and decided to cater for that. That's nonsense. They struggled to move from the PS2 engine to the PS3, simple as that. and the same on next gen. If you think it was a strategic business decision by Konami to deliberately produce a "sub standard" product, then it's not me who needs to get "in touch with reality"!

Secondly, what makes you assert I don't understand the "hard core", long time playing, pre-online days, when, I'm probably older than you and played PES, ISS etc. before you and for longer than you.

Nice try son, but you're so wide of the mark, your shot's not just off target, it's left the stadium and caught a bus!!

:lol:
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Nik778899 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:10 pm

Pesmunki wrote:
Nik778899 wrote:
Pesmunki wrote: Konami, have always made the product they want to make


They certainly do, which shows how they've let their own standards drop.


Do you seriously believe that the producers, the developers, the higher ups (as the B calls 'em), sat in the Konami board room and said, tell you what guys, our strategic vision for PES when we move to the new engine on PS3 is to "let our standards drop"?

I don't.

Which makes your post laughable. Again. ;)


Yes, because the only way for standards to slip is consciously. :roll:
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby The PES Casual » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:12 pm

Think what I might do at some point is upload footage from one or two of my online matches. By doing that I can have people lecture me and others about how un-simulation it all is and who cares about mine or my opponents feeling when actually playing the game and using tactics and individual player skill to try win. Believe I have large chunks of two matches, both of which ebbed and flowed wonderfully (in feel especially) with yes, even fatigue and tactical switch-ups contributing to the end result. Two matches I played last night were terrific as well. One a 2-1 victory, the other a 3-2 victory. My last game I lost 2-1. Still thoroughly enjoyed it.

Yet here's the thing:

I respect others experiences will differ from mine, but what I and other players who like the game should not stand for is being talked down and TOLD there are not playing a simulation, all because of some groupthink among a certain number in the communities, and their definition of a simulation. Worse are the accusations that for us who do believe we can play a simulation styled game, and do, with what the game does offer to the player makes us "braindead fans" who enjoy games with no base.

If I took a step back from the game, went online and visited community forums all I would read is one lecture after another about how unrealistic it all is and could probably start to believe them over time without actually having the experiences they describe myself. If I or others come on and say I think the game is a brilliant simulation because x,y, or z we'll get talked down to, told we don't know real football (AYE, RIGHT!) or someone will link a video by Matt or whatever.

So I got off the community carousel and thought I would look elsewhere. I started watching Spoony Pizzas, and I even started watching PESEP stuff. I didn't even watch the PESEP stuff because of myClub, but due to competitive myClub players actually having a pretty damn fine grasp of tactics and Advanced Instructions. They have tips on defence and alike too. When actually watching these guys play I might not like their overall playing style, but I do learn wee bits and bobs that I can try add to my own game, which is one in which I look to play as realistically as possible, as simulation as possible, even online. I don't go into watching this content with any bias any longer, and I sure don't think I have the game worked out completely from top to bottom; take an open-minded approach. I have learned more about PES2018 from these guys than I have from just about anyone else in the more "hardcore" corners of the community. It's weird because both types of players deconstruct the game, but these guys deconstruct it in a fashion I find way more helpful regards playing the game, understanding the game, as well as considering how I would like to see things improve in future. I find all that out by applying others knowledge of a game they enjoy, they actually play, and compliment it with my own. It is the actual experience that will inform, not reducing all players attributes to 40 and sub-consciously play to those changes seeking some confirmation. That isn't natural play, and it isn't how people are playing the game.

Folk say how crap the shooting is and I ask them what shooting mechanic they use and they say Basic. I say I use Advanced and outline all the reasons I do use it and I'll get told it doesn't matter because they tried it for a few games and they thought it was rubbish. Fine, if it were just an opinion, but they don't speak like they are offering an opinion, more they are the ones with all the facts and they apply to me and all users and any disagreement means I am a fantasy football player, or Konami PR. Not once is it considered that for a player who seeks a simulation experience that maybe Advanced Shooting helps with them personally to realise that, or that there might actually be some merits to that mechanic, but maybe does need some tweaking to make it the recognised standard among more players. No. All rubbish all of the time and the fault lies with Basic shooting, the developers, and not their own stubbornness. Not once is the name "Basic" taken in context. Honestly, see a lot of these sim-players I read or watch, many of them use basic shooting. What they then do is try tell me, a player who has used Advanced Shooting exclusively for the last two years, that there is no shot variety. That maybe the case with Basic, but I wouldn't know because it is Basic shooting. I don't want Basic shooting. I don't want the AI overriding my sense of control over a key component to the sport, and I don't want to waste my time insisting that Basic should be anything other than what it is, basic. I want to place them beautifully if I can, or pay for trying to be too clever with a player who maybe doesn't have the finishing ability, or pay for my own lack of composure. Advanced Shooting simulates the feel in execution when I play the actual sport. Others might see it (or feel it) differently, but to actually try and insist upon me (or others) that our feelings are off is to deny a human being human. An actual feeling of simulation can be subjective.

I've covered the options, be they in-game or personal choice, that I apply when playing the game. I know some of them could leave me at a disadvantage online but I persist with them because of how I want to feel when playing the game, how I want to play simulation football and can. I play competitively but I am no rank chaser, not even close. I set my own challenges and my own goals with my squad and players. I'll take my beatings and learn from them. I sort of play myClub like Master League. I have a fair few Gold and Black Ball players but find myself attached to a side that is Level 3 and consists of developed Silver and Bronze players. In that regard it is similar to the players I grew attached to in ML. The benfiits here that if I apply matchmaking filters there is a very good chance I will face a like minded player, or one who is chasing rank and superstars and he comes up against a player like me, who just sits there, waiting in that game-space, hoping to face a nice test with his bunch of players whom he has grown attached to and some whom he has developed all the way up from lvl 1., and who has absolutely experienced a change to these players abilities and contributions, their individuality and impact, over that (long) time using them.

I play to create; to test myself; to test my tactics; to test the football I want to play, and it feels amazing when the style I look to apply comes off against another human opponent, particularly if they are well skilled. I don't get bogged down in what others are doing too much because I cannot control that, so if I come up against long ball spammer I don't get angry, I take the test, and see it as an opportunity to further validate my own choices, my own style, without claiming it to be anything other than my own sense of simulation. Sometimes I'll come up against a player similar to me but who just has a greater mastery of the controls, or simply just has a better feel for his chosen squad than I do for mine regards the match in question. Maybe his players' form are better than mine. Maybe he is using an Advanced Instruction that is impacting my team shape and I just need to work it out. Maybe I should man-mark a dude, stick "Papu" on a random man-mark job on my opponents Marcelo, or drop the defenders positioning a little deeper to counter his numbers and pace in that 4-3-3 he is using. Maybe Offensive Full-backs would've faired better than the Defensive ones I am using as it might have forced him on the back foot on the flanks more, but Fosu-Mensah and Jonny Castro have been among the first names on the team sheet for a month or so now, because of what they offer me defensively, and they are still getting better. Maybe I should apply Defensive on one of the CMF's in my 4-4-2, at least until half-time if I am under the cosh. Maybe I should switch to 5-2-2-1 defensive tactic if I am 1-0 up and we're going into the last 15mins, but I am outplaying my opponent. Could be a needless risk, but it could also see the game out effectively for me. That is me taking part in a tactical battle. A simulation. You absolutely can slow the game down and dictate pace, in both attack and defence if you set-up to play the way you actually want to play and just practice and fine tune.

Admittedly, most of that applies to online play, but through my own experience with the game and yes, "myCunt", I can't take anyone who says online is not and cannot be a simulation experience as anything other than a view that runs counter to mine. They are not wrong as it happens, as the game does allow for fantasy football-esque shenanigans, but I only truly see that when I use level 4 and above squads, and it isn't me trying to play the fantasy football anyway, at least not intentionally. That is me going into territory online I don't care for, does exist, but I rarely cross paths with it. The key thing is I don't let what others do, how they look to play, bother me too much in the online arena, and believe me if I thought the football I want to try play was utterly futile because the game simply wouldn't allow it or it prevented me feeling a sense of being able to compete, I wouldn't bother with the mode or online play at all. That isn't what is happening.

But offline and in other modes? It appears to be a different story there. The fact is the times are changing and development of the game reflects that. Saying a career mode is the bread and butter of a football game is fair enough, but it isn't an indisputable fact, certainly not any longer, because the times are changing. So that is where the community can look to offer some steer; a completely valid voice with opinions on the perceived demise of offline play, what they consider as a priority. However, if they can't do so without the need to go labelling others as nothing more than fantasy football loving "braindead fans" who like playing games with no base then they, we, I, aren't going to get anywhere in any bid to have our voices heard and get what we want.

We'll become ever more isolated, ever more considered as "elitists" who seem to like to do nothing more than talk down to everyone else while dreaming up wee theories about Japanese culture, football knowledge of the developers, Adam Bhatti, the wider player base or whatever other pointless distractions which can only be entertained as pressing concerns in communities that are hell-bent on blocking the reality out that there are indeed many who don't share their views. At the very least we seem incapable of entertaining opposing views without condescension. We'll become "extremists" who will be considered in much the same way as a militant left or alt-right in politics. A fringe, deeply prejudiced group whom there is no point trying to please because they will never allow for any compromise without it coming across as divisive anyway:

"Let them have their online fantasy football-type playing game, and provide us with our hardcore simulation game."

Aye, very good.
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby miguelfcp » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 pm

I'm not interested in cheap talk, so everything you wrote in the end of your post I'll choose to ignore. And it's irrelevant whether you've been playing the game before me, or if you're older or not than me. Chit chat belongs somewhere else than here.

So if I understood it correctly, my take on PES' falling from grace had to do with lack of innovation in the gameplay, whereas you defend they "struggled to move from one engine to the other". Probably we're both right, as the transition from the PS2-PS3 initiated the decay of the overall product and its gameplay, mostly. Wouldn't you agree on this?

If you do understand that crowd, regardless of whether you consider yourself to belong to it or not, you certainly have a clue about their concerns for the direction the game is taking.

I stand by what I've said about the expectations of the players. If Konami's still interested in feedback, it won't help saying the game is "kind of fine, if you turn on/off automatic-whatever, it's not that bad", compared to what I've seen for decades fans of the game do: give authentic, honest and thorough feedback (some even used to write page long lists, don't know if that's still a thing anymore) - showing they have high expectations for a product and will hold Konami responsible if they don't meet those demands, which in turn makes Konami work harder not to disappoint the fans, and here it is me describing a healthy relationship between developer - consumer where everyone ends up winning.

It's up to you if you want to keep "kind of winning, if you use this or that feature, the game is not horrible".

PES Casual - Whoa, that post deserved a front page post on its own due to its length alone! Anyways, you could've made your point in much less words: you LIKE the game you're playing. You're satisfied with it. That's fantastic. No one can tell you what a realistic simulation is, because you feel you're already playing that realistic simulation. I'm sure lot of people will agree with you and that's amazing.
But as far as I can tell, my standards are higher than yours when it comes to judging whether a game is truly great. The reality is simple: you were presented with PES2018 and liked it, I was also and I didn't. So naturally, you're going to keep fighting to keep the game you like as it is and I'm going to keep wanting a much better product.

It's the beauty of the free market. Everyone is able to choose what they want in a product and what they think it is worth, if it IS worth their money. Right now, the game is not worth mine, but it is worth yours. Ultimately, it's irrelevant for Konami because or money is the same, but it's not irrelevant to me, because I want better.
Last edited by miguelfcp on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
miguelfcp
Mascot
Mascot
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Matt10 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:35 pm

Who the hell is saying online players are brain dead? I watch PESEP and sub to Spoony's content all the time. I also love watching Spooky's content as well, even if I don't understand a word.

I feel like this is an artificial divide to make a point, Alan. If that's the collective diagnosis you have made by surveying posts from the "hardcore" sim fans, then I'd suspect there is either a misunderstanding or something else is missing from the equation.

My biggest gripe is just the nature of online, for when I play online, and then for KONAMI not able to provide tools so I don't have to experience the same things from online...in my offline play. Does that make sense??

For example, formations that are spread wayyyyy apart, 4-3-3 right? The gap between the forward and the midfield is HUGE. This is how Asim played when I called out the space back on E3 videos, and it's not different for when it applies to an offline game.

Here's the thing though, I completely get that the space in hopes to get more chances for the online crowd. But I choose to play 20 minute matches, so now again the online code seeps into my offline experience. Space for days. Why is that? Don't you see where the frustration comes from now? I didn't ask for all that "online" space...did you? Did someone else?

It's not about hardcore vs casual. It's not real. It's about KONAMI opting to go more for the online crowd by way of their actions and less about what they say. Which is why I want actions now. No more talk from KONAMI.
User avatar
Matt10
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:22 pm
Twitter: @Matt10L

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:43 pm

Nik778899 wrote:
Yes, because the only way for standards to slip is consciously. :roll:


Erm, no it isn't. :lol:
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby peskev » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:50 pm

Coop play was the big back of the box feature this year. This would have been taken into account when working out how much space players should have.

At the end of the day, the game has to be fun or it won't sell. Coop mode has the perfect blend of having space to think about your next move and the pressure you get from potentially 3 human players charging at you.


Matt10 wrote:Who the hell is saying online players are brain dead? I watch PESEP and sub to Spoony's content all the time. I also love watching Spooky's content as well, even if I don't understand a word.

I feel like this is an artificial divide to make a point, Alan. If that's the collective diagnosis you have made by surveying posts from the "hardcore" sim fans, then I'd suspect there is either a misunderstanding or something else is missing from the equation.

My biggest gripe is just the nature of online, for when I play online, and then for KONAMI not able to provide tools so I don't have to experience the same things from online...in my offline play. Does that make sense??

For example, formations that are spread wayyyyy apart, 4-3-3 right? The gap between the forward and the midfield is HUGE. This is how Asim played when I called out the space back on E3 videos, and it's not different for when it applies to an offline game.

Here's the thing though, I completely get that the space in hopes to get more chances for the online crowd. But I choose to play 20 minute matches, so now again the online code seeps into my offline experience. Space for days. Why is that? Don't you see where the frustration comes from now? I didn't ask for all that "online" space...did you? Did someone else?

It's not about hardcore vs casual. It's not real. It's about KONAMI opting to go more for the online crowd by way of their actions and less about what they say. Which is why I want actions now. No more talk from KONAMI.
peskev
Ballboy
Ballboy
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:37 am

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:03 pm

The PES Casual wrote:Think what I might do at some point is upload footage from one or two of my online matches. By doing that I can have people lecture me and others about how un-simulation it all is and who cares about mine or my opponents feeling when actually playing the game and using tactics and individual player skill to try win. Believe I have large chunks of two matches, both of which ebbed and flowed wonderfully (in feel especially) with yes, even fatigue and tactical switch-ups contributing to the end result. Two matches I played last night were terrific as well. One a 2-1 victory, the other a 3-2 victory. My last game I lost 2-1. Still thoroughly enjoyed it.

Yet here's the thing:

I respect others experiences will differ from mine, but what I and other players who like the game should not stand for is being talked down and TOLD there are not playing a simulation, all because of some groupthink among a certain number in the communities, and their definition of a simulation. Worse are the accusations that for us who do believe we can play a simulation styled game, and do, with what the game does offer to the player makes us "braindead fans" who enjoy games with no base.

If I took a step back from the game, went online and visited community forums all I would read is one lecture after another about how unrealistic it all is and could probably start to believe them over time without actually having the experiences they describe myself. If I or others come on and say I think the game is a brilliant simulation because x,y, or z we'll get talked down to, told we don't know real football (AYE, RIGHT!) or someone will link a video by Matt or whatever.

So I got off the community carousel and thought I would look elsewhere. I started watching Spoony Pizzas, and I even started watching PESEP stuff. I didn't even watch the PESEP stuff because of myClub, but due to competitive myClub players actually having a pretty damn fine grasp of tactics and Advanced Instructions. They have tips on defence and alike too. When actually watching these guys play I might not like their overall playing style, but I do learn wee bits and bobs that I can try add to my own game, which is one in which I look to play as realistically as possible, as simulation as possible, even online. I don't go into watching this content with any bias any longer, and I sure don't think I have the game worked out completely from top to bottom; take an open-minded approach. I have learned more about PES2018 from these guys than I have from just about anyone else in the more "hardcore" corners of the community. It's weird because both types of players deconstruct the game, but these guys deconstruct it in a fashion I find way more helpful regards playing the game, understanding the game, as well as considering how I would like to see things improve in future. I find all that out by applying others knowledge of a game they enjoy, they actually play, and compliment it with my own. It is the actual experience that will inform, not reducing all players attributes to 40 and sub-consciously play to those changes seeking some confirmation. That isn't natural play, and it isn't how people are playing the game.

Folk say how crap the shooting is and I ask them what shooting mechanic they use and they say Basic. I say I use Advanced and outline all the reasons I do use it and I'll get told it doesn't matter because they tried it for a few games and they thought it was rubbish. Fine, if it were just an opinion, but they don't speak like they are offering an opinion, more they are the ones with all the facts and they apply to me and all users and any disagreement means I am a fantasy football player, or Konami PR. Not once is it considered that for a player who seeks a simulation experience that maybe Advanced Shooting helps with them personally to realise that, or that there might actually be some merits to that mechanic, but maybe does need some tweaking to make it the recognised standard among more players. No. All rubbish all of the time and the fault lies with Basic shooting, the developers, and not their own stubbornness. Not once is the name "Basic" taken in context. Honestly, see a lot of these sim-players I read or watch, many of them use basic shooting. What they then do is try tell me, a player who has used Advanced Shooting exclusively for the last two years, that there is no shot variety. That maybe the case with Basic, but I wouldn't know because it is Basic shooting. I don't want Basic shooting. I don't want the AI overriding my sense of control over a key component to the sport, and I don't want to waste my time insisting that Basic should be anything other than what it is, basic. I want to place them beautifully if I can, or pay for trying to be too clever with a player who maybe doesn't have the finishing ability, or pay for my own lack of composure. Advanced Shooting simulates the feel in execution when I play the actual sport. Others might see it (or feel it) differently, but to actually try and insist upon me (or others) that our feelings are off is to deny a human being human. An actual feeling of simulation can be subjective.

I've covered the options, be they in-game or personal choice, that I apply when playing the game. I know some of them could leave me at a disadvantage online but I persist with them because of how I want to feel when playing the game, how I want to play simulation football and can. I play competitively but I am no rank chaser, not even close. I set my own challenges and my own goals with my squad and players. I'll take my beatings and learn from them. I sort of play myClub like Master League. I have a fair few Gold and Black Ball players but find myself attached to a side that is Level 3 and consists of developed Silver and Bronze players. In that regard it is similar to the players I grew attached to in ML. The benfiits here that if I apply matchmaking filters there is a very good chance I will face a like minded player, or one who is chasing rank and superstars and he comes up against a player like me, who just sits there, waiting in that game-space, hoping to face a nice test with his bunch of players whom he has grown attached to and some whom he has developed all the way up from lvl 1., and who has absolutely experienced a change to these players abilities and contributions, their individuality and impact, over that (long) time using them.

I play to create; to test myself; to test my tactics; to test the football I want to play, and it feels amazing when the style I look to apply comes off against another human opponent, particularly if they are well skilled. I don't get bogged down in what others are doing too much because I cannot control that, so if I come up against long ball spammer I don't get angry, I take the test, and see it as an opportunity to further validate my own choices, my own style, without claiming it to be anything other than my own sense of simulation. Sometimes I'll come up against a player similar to me but who just has a greater mastery of the controls, or simply just has a better feel for his chosen squad than I do for mine regards the match in question. Maybe his players' form are better than mine. Maybe he is using an Advanced Instruction that is impacting my team shape and I just need to work it out. Maybe I should man-mark a dude, stick "Papu" on a random man-mark job on my opponents Marcelo, or drop the defenders positioning a little deeper to counter his numbers and pace in that 4-3-3 he is using. Maybe Offensive Full-backs would've faired better than the Defensive ones I am using as it might have forced him on the back foot on the flanks more, but Fosu-Mensah and Jonny Castro have been among the first names on the team sheet for a month or so now, because of what they offer me defensively, and they are still getting better. Maybe I should apply Defensive on one of the CMF's in my 4-4-2, at least until half-time if I am under the cosh. Maybe I should switch to 5-2-2-1 defensive tactic if I am 1-0 up and we're going into the last 15mins, but I am outplaying my opponent. Could be a needless risk, but it could also see the game out effectively for me. That is me taking part in a tactical battle. A simulation. You absolutely can slow the game down and dictate pace, in both attack and defence if you set-up to play the way you actually want to play and just practice and fine tune.

Admittedly, most of that applies to online play, but through my own experience with the game and yes, "myCunt", I can't take anyone who says online is not and cannot be a simulation experience as anything other than a view that runs counter to mine. They are not wrong as it happens, as the game does allow for fantasy football-esque shenanigans, but I only truly see that when I use level 4 and above squads, and it isn't me trying to play the fantasy football anyway, at least not intentionally. That is me going into territory online I don't care for, does exist, but I rarely cross paths with it. The key thing is I don't let what others do, how they look to play, bother me too much in the online arena, and believe me if I thought the football I want to try play was utterly futile because the game simply wouldn't allow it or it prevented me feeling a sense of being able to compete, I wouldn't bother with the mode or online play at all. That isn't what is happening.

But offline and in other modes? It appears to be a different story there. The fact is the times are changing and development of the game reflects that. Saying a career mode is the bread and butter of a football game is fair enough, but it isn't an indisputable fact, certainly not any longer, because the times are changing. So that is where the community can look to offer some steer; a completely valid voice with opinions on the perceived demise of offline play, what they consider as a priority. However, if they can't do so without the need to go labelling others as nothing more than fantasy football loving "braindead fans" who like playing games with no base then they, we, I, aren't going to get anywhere in any bid to have our voices heard and get what we want.

We'll become ever more isolated, ever more considered as "elitists" who seem to like to do nothing more than talk down to everyone else while dreaming up wee theories about Japanese culture, football knowledge of the developers, Adam Bhatti, the wider player base or whatever other pointless distractions which can only be entertained as pressing concerns in communities that are hell-bent on blocking the reality out that there are indeed many who don't share their views. At the very least we seem incapable of entertaining opposing views without condescension. We'll become "extremists" who will be considered in much the same way as a militant left or alt-right in politics. A fringe, deeply prejudiced group whom there is no point trying to please because they will never allow for any compromise without it coming across as divisive anyway:

"Let them have their online fantasy football-type playing game, and provide us with our hardcore simulation game."

Aye, very good.



This post is so good... hence "I couldn't have put it better myself".



:D
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Nik778899 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:05 pm

Pesmunki wrote:
Nik778899 wrote:
Yes, because the only way for standards to slip is consciously. :roll:


Erm, no it isn't. :lol:


Good lord.

I was being sarcastic. Your example questioned why Konami would consciously decide to let their standards slip. I was merely pointing out, via sarcasm that went straight over your head, that standards can slip unconsciously too. You instead are blaming something that happened 10 years ago for the reason PES is what it is today.
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby The PES Casual » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:10 pm

miguelfcp wrote:But as far as I can tell, my standards are higher than yours when it comes to judging whether a game is truly great.


See what I mean? It might not be your intention, and it could be your English which you yourself passed comment on as being a wee bit off but for what it's worth I find pretty damned good, but this comes across as looking down upon others. You might be saying that it is great that I and other players can find that simulation type play, but it does feel a little condescending. I will say that knowing I have my faults in that regard.

And Matt, check back through the previous thread. You will find a post that refers to the wider user base as "braindead fans". Also, I think I have accepted and stated that there is the perception of offline play not being what it should be, and I will roll with that as it is an obvious community concern. However, I do think it is too easy and quite possibly inaccurate to say the online game is seeping into the offline one, as it again doesn't really match up with my own experience. I'll need to start posting some matches up, along with even highlight reels, that can show that it isn't some game of footy basketball I am playing. It can be at times, and that is something that happens in the real sport, so it being there in the game isn't an issue, but how it materialises as often as it maybe can on a wider scale is.

Anyway, I genuinely mean this. It is good to exchange views, differing views, with others in a bid to chisel out some great feedback and ideas. Much we are never going to see eye-to-eye on, but that makes for better debate and discussion in the long term.

Well played, folks.
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Matt10 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:17 pm

peskev wrote:Coop play was the big back of the box feature this year. This would have been taken into account when working out how much space players should have.

At the end of the day, the game has to be fun or it won't sell. Coop mode has the perfect blend of having space to think about your next move and the pressure you get from potentially 3 human players charging at you.


Matt10 wrote:Who the hell is saying online players are brain dead? I watch PESEP and sub to Spoony's content all the time. I also love watching Spooky's content as well, even if I don't understand a word.

I feel like this is an artificial divide to make a point, Alan. If that's the collective diagnosis you have made by surveying posts from the "hardcore" sim fans, then I'd suspect there is either a misunderstanding or something else is missing from the equation.

My biggest gripe is just the nature of online, for when I play online, and then for KONAMI not able to provide tools so I don't have to experience the same things from online...in my offline play. Does that make sense??

For example, formations that are spread wayyyyy apart, 4-3-3 right? The gap between the forward and the midfield is HUGE. This is how Asim played when I called out the space back on E3 videos, and it's not different for when it applies to an offline game.

Here's the thing though, I completely get that the space in hopes to get more chances for the online crowd. But I choose to play 20 minute matches, so now again the online code seeps into my offline experience. Space for days. Why is that? Don't you see where the frustration comes from now? I didn't ask for all that "online" space...did you? Did someone else?

It's not about hardcore vs casual. It's not real. It's about KONAMI opting to go more for the online crowd by way of their actions and less about what they say. Which is why I want actions now. No more talk from KONAMI.


Right, and I'm not going to go and complain about the COOP crowd because my Master League matches are just as spaced out as online matches. I am going to complain to KONAMI. That is what I believe 90% of those "hardcore"entusiasts are complaining to. We feel our voices aren't heard because there was no tangible change by way of action.

So again, that's why I don't understand why there is such a defense when the game is criticized relevant to game mode played. There is no division of sim vs casual, I'm not mad at them and I don't respect them less. I don't assume they got what they want at all. I know they want more, just like I want more from the game. That's why this rhetoric has to stop now.

Like I said previously, this is just for conversation. Last year I wanted to bring things up to KONAMI. Now, not so much. If they're content with PES 2018, that tells me enough of where there direction is going. My hope is they took FUT as a base for MyClub, I hope they do the same for FIFA's offline structure as a base in concept.
User avatar
Matt10
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:22 pm
Twitter: @Matt10L

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:27 pm

Matt10 wrote:It's not about hardcore vs casual. It's not real. It's about KONAMI opting to go more for the online crowd by way of their actions and less about what they say. Which is why I want actions now. No more talk from KONAMI.


This paragraph sums you up. You say there's no divide, that the PES Casual is artificially creating a divide, yet in your very next sentence you say there is a divide, by saying Konami are going after the "online crowd".

I play both online and off, which crowd do I slot in to then?

The whole game industry has been moving more towards the online space. Why should Konami ignore that very reality?

The thing that got a lot of traction on forums, and particularly this one from the release of 2012, was that online had too many exploits, anyone remember the constant triangle through ball to Ronaldo that plagued 2012 and 2013? I do. What the producers and developers have been trying to do, in my opinion, is reduce, year on year, the exploitable nature of the code in the online modes. This year is close, there's less and less exploit available to spammers. It's not gone exclusively, but close.

This does not in any way say that everything's fine, lets move on. It's simply shining a light on reality. For Konami, not to cater for online in this day and age really would be business suicide.
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:31 pm

Nik778899 wrote:
Pesmunki wrote:
Nik778899 wrote:
Yes, because the only way for standards to slip is consciously. :roll:


Erm, no it isn't. :lol:


Good lord.

I was being sarcastic. Your example questioned why Konami would consciously decide to let their standards slip. I was merely pointing out, via sarcasm that went straight over your head, that standards can slip unconsciously too. You instead are blaming something that happened 10 years ago for the reason PES is what it is today.


You could have just said, Pesmunki, I agree mate, they probably didn't make a conscious board room decision to let standards slip. (Which was actually what I said). But you decided to be an a**e!!
User avatar
Pesmunki
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Matt10 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:34 pm

The PES Casual wrote:
miguelfcp wrote:But as far as I can tell, my standards are higher than yours when it comes to judging whether a game is truly great.


See what I mean? It might not be your intention, and it could be your English which you yourself passed comment on as being a wee bit off but for what it's worth I find pretty damned good, but this comes across as looking down upon others. You might be saying that it is great that I and other players can find that simulation type play, but it does feel a little condescending. I will say that knowing I have my faults in that regard.

And Matt, check back through the previous thread. You will find a post that refers to the wider user base as "braindead fans". Also, I think I have accepted and stated that there is the perception of offline play not being what it should be, and I will roll with that as it is an obvious community concern. However, I do think it is too easy and quite possibly inaccurate to say the online game is seeping into the offline one, as it again doesn't really match up with my own experience. I'll need to start posting some matches up, along with even highlight reels, that can show that it isn't some game of footy basketball I am playing. It can be at times, and that is something that happens in the real sport, so it being there in the game isn't an issue, but how it materialises as often as it maybe can on a wider scale is.

Anyway, I genuinely mean this. It is good to exchange views, differing views, with others in a bid to chisel out some great feedback and ideas. Much we are never going to see eye-to-eye on, but that makes for better debate and discussion in the long term.

Well played, folks.


Yes, of course, Alan. It's not to say that the cult classics were not filled with them either. What made them different, and stood out, was the closing down nature and more logical decision making to occupy space. If I may, my video that went over the passing lanes compared to PES 3 to PES 2018:



The one thing I don't want to do this year is recycle these types of videos. It's not like I'm pulling a video of FIFA and comparing it. No, I'm using a game that is older and had the space issue resolved. My logical thinking is that the reason why it won't be this way is because the online code needs more space so it can get from one end of the pitch to the other, as quick as possible. However, it's also not the same comparison because user input is such a variable, so why the same type of online play is applied to offline makes no sense to me.

I spent a lot of money on PES 18 last year. I am at the point where I'd be willing to pay for two separate PES versions. An online one and an offline one. Boy that would be great.
User avatar
Matt10
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:22 pm
Twitter: @Matt10L

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 13)

Postby Nik778899 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:40 pm

Pesmunki wrote:You could have just said, Pesmunki, I agree mate, they probably didn't make a conscious board room decision to let standards slip. (Which was actually what I said). But you decided to be an a**e!!


I decided to be an arse in direct response to this:

Pesmunki wrote:Do you seriously believe that the producers, the developers, the higher ups (as the B calls 'em), sat in the Konami board room and said, tell you what guys, our strategic vision for PES when we move to the new engine on PS3 is to "let our standards drop"?

I don't.

Which makes your post laughable. Again. ;)


Because you're definitely not being an arse there. (That's sarcasm, btw)
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Next

Return to PES & WE News / Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot] and 9 guests