PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

News from the Pro Evolution / Winning Eleven gaming world, discussions from the posts on WinningElevenBlog.com and general PES & WE discussions

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Nik778899 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:11 pm

Joolz40559 wrote:Hi guys and gals any idea when the January transfer window update will be out for PES 2018 and Fifa 2018? Seems nothing on official Twitter.


They do live updates all year round.
You just need to download the latest squads in the settings of each game.
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby danielrh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:30 pm

The PES Casual wrote:
Regarding ML there is possibly an element of truth regarding how an engine impacts on development of modes, certainly regards how change and also resource can impact on the development of certain assets. What potentially results is at the very least (the very least) a perception that development of any asset has been abandoned.

Without going into details or specifics, because I can't and whatever I do know is hardly crammed with minute detail (in other words I don't have all the information), I know that ML is not being abandoned. I just simply know that and it isn't known by reading into articles, tweets, and alike.

What comes from the refusal of the developer to abandon ML is up for continuing debate, with game itself ultimately having to do the talking come what may.

There is a period of transition happening in gaming as a whole, right down to distribution. I am of the opinion (and when I say this it is just opinion, not based on any knowledge of an ITK nature) that we might very well see a product(s) that will look to split the userbase very clearly, but if done right can be a positive thing for all types of player in the long run. It wouldn't surpise me if a PES-lite formed the base of the game, so in essence the base is free from it's release, with modes outwith myClub being assets that can be bought. Sounds scary, eh? Especially given publishers form across the whole medium, but something like that could work in my opinion if done right.

Right in that particular situation would be to make the key paid content, if all of it were to be purchased by a user, to amount to that same 40-50 quid outlay we currently have for the full game, but doesn't demand all that money up front.

Would a player like yourself, for example, be willing to pay 15-20 quid for ML (so all teams and players and Edit Mode mode thrown in) once you have downloaded and installed the free base game? Would you, after that and as an offline player be then willing to pay a couple of quid for a use in offline only play Legend player? Would you like a game that offers user-choice from the off like that? A product in which value comes from what you are only willing to pay? Remember, you would starting from a position of not having paid anything.

Now, there are risks there. I would have my own concerns (pricing model) but, and this is a potential biggie for ML players, it could reveal that those who play ML are a tiny minority, with the concern then being that they do scrap the mode as opposed to attempt to improve it.

I'm not entirely sure where I would sit with something like that, but I could see potential benefits as well as new potential issues. What wouldn't be an issue is player choice as they would no longer have to pay a lump sum up front for a game in which only one or two modes appeal.

Anyway, that is the types of questions I like to ponder over with these games when it comes to access, value, and overall health of the product. Ways in which to explore trying to keep everyone happy.

I would like other folk to offer their take on that model. Would like to hear your own thoughts, Nik.


I like the idea but I don't think the community would be ready/happy with this option.

The route I'd take would be to have a sort of a merger between MyClub and Master league offline for eg it would be so cool if legends became available to be seen in Master league offline as free transfers but to add more realism to it these guys would not negotiate with your club if your club is not seen as a big club, challenging for top honours or a club that's in the champions league.

and what about a player ID stat that says for eg David Beckham favourite club Man U so if Man U came in for Beckham that club would have a advantage because the player likes the club in the first place

following on from this I'd would like to see a return of the PES shop where you can get boots, goalkeeper gloves for your youth players or to just give your players a make over

and here's another one you win (for eg) promotion to the premier league and you get a free gold ball agent for MyClub or you get in game coins to use in the PES shop or to use on MyClub.

just an example of a the two modes being linked together (separate of course) but there's a link between the two
PESLeague UK Official Event Admin

Official PESLeague PES2018 tournament website
https://pesleague.konami.net/2018/eu/en/

PES2019 is "the POWER of football"
User avatar
danielrh
Pundit
Pundit
 
Posts: 4163
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:04 pm
Gamertag: Vict0r Sweet
PSN: Vict0rSweet1
Twitter: @danielrhenry

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Nik778899 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:45 pm

danielrh wrote:
The PES Casual wrote:
Regarding ML there is possibly an element of truth regarding how an engine impacts on development of modes, certainly regards how change and also resource can impact on the development of certain assets. What potentially results is at the very least (the very least) a perception that development of any asset has been abandoned.

Without going into details or specifics, because I can't and whatever I do know is hardly crammed with minute detail (in other words I don't have all the information), I know that ML is not being abandoned. I just simply know that and it isn't known by reading into articles, tweets, and alike.

What comes from the refusal of the developer to abandon ML is up for continuing debate, with game itself ultimately having to do the talking come what may.

There is a period of transition happening in gaming as a whole, right down to distribution. I am of the opinion (and when I say this it is just opinion, not based on any knowledge of an ITK nature) that we might very well see a product(s) that will look to split the userbase very clearly, but if done right can be a positive thing for all types of player in the long run. It wouldn't surpise me if a PES-lite formed the base of the game, so in essence the base is free from it's release, with modes outwith myClub being assets that can be bought. Sounds scary, eh? Especially given publishers form across the whole medium, but something like that could work in my opinion if done right.

Right in that particular situation would be to make the key paid content, if all of it were to be purchased by a user, to amount to that same 40-50 quid outlay we currently have for the full game, but doesn't demand all that money up front.

Would a player like yourself, for example, be willing to pay 15-20 quid for ML (so all teams and players and Edit Mode mode thrown in) once you have downloaded and installed the free base game? Would you, after that and as an offline player be then willing to pay a couple of quid for a use in offline only play Legend player? Would you like a game that offers user-choice from the off like that? A product in which value comes from what you are only willing to pay? Remember, you would starting from a position of not having paid anything.

Now, there are risks there. I would have my own concerns (pricing model) but, and this is a potential biggie for ML players, it could reveal that those who play ML are a tiny minority, with the concern then being that they do scrap the mode as opposed to attempt to improve it.

I'm not entirely sure where I would sit with something like that, but I could see potential benefits as well as new potential issues. What wouldn't be an issue is player choice as they would no longer have to pay a lump sum up front for a game in which only one or two modes appeal.

Anyway, that is the types of questions I like to ponder over with these games when it comes to access, value, and overall health of the product. Ways in which to explore trying to keep everyone happy.

I would like other folk to offer their take on that model. Would like to hear your own thoughts, Nik.


I like the idea but I don't think the community would be ready/happy with this option.

The route I'd take would be to have a sort of a merger between MyClub and Master league offline for eg it would be so cool if legends became available to be seen in Master league offline as free transfers but to add more realism to it these guys would not negotiate with your club if your club is not seen as a big club, challenging for top honours or a club that's in the champions league.

and what about a player ID stat that says for eg David Beckham favourite club Man U so if Man U came in for Beckham that club would have a advantage because the player likes the club in the first place

following on from this I'd would like to see a return of the PES shop where you can get boots, goalkeeper gloves for your youth players or to just give your players a make over

and here's another one you win (for eg) promotion to the premier league and you get a free gold ball agent for MyClub or you get in game coins to use in the PES shop or to use on MyClub.

just an example of a the two modes being linked together (separate of course) but there's a link between the two


The idea of merging those two could not be less appealing. Legends in ML defeat the object for me, which is to simulate real life football.
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby aliheidari2520 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:19 pm

classic Argentina vs classic Brazil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFyKxzfIqLw
User avatar
aliheidari2520
Reserve Team
Reserve Team
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:09 am
Location: Iran, Tehran
PSN: aliheidari2520

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Nik778899 wrote:
danielrh wrote:
The PES Casual wrote:
Regarding ML there is possibly an element of truth regarding how an engine impacts on development of modes, certainly regards how change and also resource can impact on the development of certain assets. What potentially results is at the very least (the very least) a perception that development of any asset has been abandoned.

Without going into details or specifics, because I can't and whatever I do know is hardly crammed with minute detail (in other words I don't have all the information), I know that ML is not being abandoned. I just simply know that and it isn't known by reading into articles, tweets, and alike.

What comes from the refusal of the developer to abandon ML is up for continuing debate, with game itself ultimately having to do the talking come what may.

There is a period of transition happening in gaming as a whole, right down to distribution. I am of the opinion (and when I say this it is just opinion, not based on any knowledge of an ITK nature) that we might very well see a product(s) that will look to split the userbase very clearly, but if done right can be a positive thing for all types of player in the long run. It wouldn't surpise me if a PES-lite formed the base of the game, so in essence the base is free from it's release, with modes outwith myClub being assets that can be bought. Sounds scary, eh? Especially given publishers form across the whole medium, but something like that could work in my opinion if done right.

Right in that particular situation would be to make the key paid content, if all of it were to be purchased by a user, to amount to that same 40-50 quid outlay we currently have for the full game, but doesn't demand all that money up front.

Would a player like yourself, for example, be willing to pay 15-20 quid for ML (so all teams and players and Edit Mode mode thrown in) once you have downloaded and installed the free base game? Would you, after that and as an offline player be then willing to pay a couple of quid for a use in offline only play Legend player? Would you like a game that offers user-choice from the off like that? A product in which value comes from what you are only willing to pay? Remember, you would starting from a position of not having paid anything.

Now, there are risks there. I would have my own concerns (pricing model) but, and this is a potential biggie for ML players, it could reveal that those who play ML are a tiny minority, with the concern then being that they do scrap the mode as opposed to attempt to improve it.

I'm not entirely sure where I would sit with something like that, but I could see potential benefits as well as new potential issues. What wouldn't be an issue is player choice as they would no longer have to pay a lump sum up front for a game in which only one or two modes appeal.

Anyway, that is the types of questions I like to ponder over with these games when it comes to access, value, and overall health of the product. Ways in which to explore trying to keep everyone happy.

I would like other folk to offer their take on that model. Would like to hear your own thoughts, Nik.


I like the idea but I don't think the community would be ready/happy with this option.

The route I'd take would be to have a sort of a merger between MyClub and Master league offline for eg it would be so cool if legends became available to be seen in Master league offline as free transfers but to add more realism to it these guys would not negotiate with your club if your club is not seen as a big club, challenging for top honours or a club that's in the champions league.

and what about a player ID stat that says for eg David Beckham favourite club Man U so if Man U came in for Beckham that club would have a advantage because the player likes the club in the first place

following on from this I'd would like to see a return of the PES shop where you can get boots, goalkeeper gloves for your youth players or to just give your players a make over

and here's another one you win (for eg) promotion to the premier league and you get a free gold ball agent for MyClub or you get in game coins to use in the PES shop or to use on MyClub.

just an example of a the two modes being linked together (separate of course) but there's a link between the two


The idea of merging those two could not be less appealing. Legends in ML defeat the object for me, which is to simulate real life football.


And yet, since day dot with ML if I recall, legends or "classic players" have been available in the mode if the user has wanted them to be. Another example of player choice. Another example of players being able to customise the simulation as they see fit.

Classic players (Legends) in ML, or at the very least having the option to have classic players in ML has been an option. For years. Have you always been against that option and wish for it to be taken away, or have you just knee-jerked because of their current association with myClub?

What would the issue be if players were given the option to pay less than the current going rate to play ML but if they wanted to they could purchase Legends or Classic Teams? They already have the option to edit them in themselves. Are you wanting harsh restrictions placed on Edit Mode too, in order to further solidify some integrity of the simulation that you have quite frankly invented and set as some utterly joyless rule?

Lighten up.

Casual observation: there is a militancy within some in the community that compromises both their subjectivity and objectivity.

Additional casual observation: legends of the game are part of the discussion in football culture. A wee look at the pages of Four Four Two and World Soccer inform me of that; classic kit online stores and fashion statements linked to football icons and generations inform me of that. Quite simply being a football fan informs me of that.

These games are now part of football culture and are in turn inspired by it. One of the reasons myClub or FIFA Ultimate Team exist and succeed is due to how they embrace football culture, for better and worse.

However, and it cannot be ignored, there is great dissatisfaction with PES' offline modes, even the good ones like Random Selection (ooft! You must hate that mode. Tons of license taken over reality there, yet its announcement was received in most quarters as excellent news. An example PES culture that), so I actually get those concerns by those who say "myCunt". I just think they are failing to see the bigger picture. Master League has suffered because of myClub, but it isn't the sole reason for all of the game's issues or why Master League isn't everything it could be, and myClub certainly isn't how those who don't play the mode describe it. But again, I do think Master League is not what it should be and some of that can be attributed to myClub. Not the mode itself, but the fact that it is popular among players, and that touches on football culture all over again. Football culture is a real thing, myClub and modes like it in others sports titles are a reflection of some those sports cultural aspects which are incredibly popular for those of all ages.

Looking ahead, PES needs to now cater for another type of enthusiast again - The Master League player - and to do that it needs to ace a few things. I'll touch on those, as I will touch on perceived issues that... well, let's just say Matt and others are way off when they say there is no player individuality or base to the game. The market says differently; a literal market in the game says differently; and it is one driven by users themselves. I'll leave it there just now though.
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:44 pm

"...and myClub certainly isn't how those who don't play the mode describe it."

Wee edit from me here. I should have that down as "...and myClub certainly isn't how those who don't play the mode describe it, though appreciate that is completely subjective."
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Nik778899 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:01 pm

There is no 'knee-jerking' from me at all.
I'm not suggesting removing the current option for classic players, but that isn't what the suggestion was. The idea of merging MyClub with ML would end my interest in playing ML. I have no desire to play with legends in a career mode.
There's no 'joyless' rule or 'integrity of simulation' that I've invented. I simply want to play a life-like career mode without any fantasy legends and/or MyClub features. I want to play with current teams aga8nst other current teams like what happens in real life.
If they want to make MyClub integration an option then by all means go for it, as long as I don't have to play a MyClub integrated ML.

You want to hear my thoughts, I give you them and you respond with some smarky comments ("ooh, I bet you hate that"; etc). That's absolutely fine, however it is highly ironic considering you're positioning yourself as this great mediator wanting 'common ground'. You're just another schmuck like the rest of us, pal.
Nik778899
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:34 pm

Nik778899 wrote:There is no 'knee-jerking' from me at all.
I'm not suggesting removing the current option for classic players, but that isn't what the suggestion was. The idea of merging MyClub with ML would end my interest in playing ML. I have no desire to play with legends in a career mode.
There's no 'joyless' rule or 'integrity of simulation' that I've invented. I simply want to play a life-like career mode without any fantasy legends and/or MyClub features. I want to play with current teams aga8nst other current teams like what happens in real life.
If they want to make MyClub integration an option then by all means go for it, as long as I don't have to play a MyClub integrated ML.

You want to hear my thoughts, I give you them and you respond with some smarky comments ("ooh, I bet you hate that"; etc). That's absolutely fine, however it is highly ironic considering you're positioning yourself as this great mediator wanting 'common ground'. You're just another schmuck like the rest of us, pal.


Like I said, lighten up. I'm not completely against a bit of prodding and piss-taking, and do so in jest as opposed to looking to be confrontational. Not all the time anyway. There is scope for us all not to take ourselves too seriously, and I am not needing an education on irony, given how I looked to make a comeback around here and the style chosen.

I somewhat agree with you regards myClub/ML crossover (sorry Daniel), although I am not completely against rewards that can be used in myClub accessible only through actually playing ML. Potential to entice players to play ML, as opposed to myClub exclusively, is my logic there; more players getting exposure to ML; more feedback for the developers to consider, but point taken and agreed with (mostly) regards keeping Master League and myClub as completely different entities.
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby danielrh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:00 pm

Nik778899 wrote:
danielrh wrote:
The PES Casual wrote:
Regarding ML there is possibly an element of truth regarding how an engine impacts on development of modes, certainly regards how change and also resource can impact on the development of certain assets. What potentially results is at the very least (the very least) a perception that development of any asset has been abandoned.

Without going into details or specifics, because I can't and whatever I do know is hardly crammed with minute detail (in other words I don't have all the information), I know that ML is not being abandoned. I just simply know that and it isn't known by reading into articles, tweets, and alike.

What comes from the refusal of the developer to abandon ML is up for continuing debate, with game itself ultimately having to do the talking come what may.

There is a period of transition happening in gaming as a whole, right down to distribution. I am of the opinion (and when I say this it is just opinion, not based on any knowledge of an ITK nature) that we might very well see a product(s) that will look to split the userbase very clearly, but if done right can be a positive thing for all types of player in the long run. It wouldn't surpise me if a PES-lite formed the base of the game, so in essence the base is free from it's release, with modes outwith myClub being assets that can be bought. Sounds scary, eh? Especially given publishers form across the whole medium, but something like that could work in my opinion if done right.

Right in that particular situation would be to make the key paid content, if all of it were to be purchased by a user, to amount to that same 40-50 quid outlay we currently have for the full game, but doesn't demand all that money up front.

Would a player like yourself, for example, be willing to pay 15-20 quid for ML (so all teams and players and Edit Mode mode thrown in) once you have downloaded and installed the free base game? Would you, after that and as an offline player be then willing to pay a couple of quid for a use in offline only play Legend player? Would you like a game that offers user-choice from the off like that? A product in which value comes from what you are only willing to pay? Remember, you would starting from a position of not having paid anything.

Now, there are risks there. I would have my own concerns (pricing model) but, and this is a potential biggie for ML players, it could reveal that those who play ML are a tiny minority, with the concern then being that they do scrap the mode as opposed to attempt to improve it.

I'm not entirely sure where I would sit with something like that, but I could see potential benefits as well as new potential issues. What wouldn't be an issue is player choice as they would no longer have to pay a lump sum up front for a game in which only one or two modes appeal.

Anyway, that is the types of questions I like to ponder over with these games when it comes to access, value, and overall health of the product. Ways in which to explore trying to keep everyone happy.

I would like other folk to offer their take on that model. Would like to hear your own thoughts, Nik.


I like the idea but I don't think the community would be ready/happy with this option.

The route I'd take would be to have a sort of a merger between MyClub and Master league offline for eg it would be so cool if legends became available to be seen in Master league offline as free transfers but to add more realism to it these guys would not negotiate with your club if your club is not seen as a big club, challenging for top honours or a club that's in the champions league.

and what about a player ID stat that says for eg David Beckham favourite club Man U so if Man U came in for Beckham that club would have a advantage because the player likes the club in the first place

following on from this I'd would like to see a return of the PES shop where you can get boots, goalkeeper gloves for your youth players or to just give your players a make over

and here's another one you win (for eg) promotion to the premier league and you get a free gold ball agent for MyClub or you get in game coins to use in the PES shop or to use on MyClub.

just an example of a the two modes being linked together (separate of course) but there's a link between the two


The idea of merging those two could not be less appealing. Legends in ML defeat the object for me, which is to simulate real life football.


I know I used the word merge - linking is a better word because guys who play Master league offline have missed out on the legends that appear in my club.

Master league offline does have a option to turn classic players on or off but these are from the classic teams section and these players names have to be edited.

anyway the awesome legends (licenced) from MyClub would be awesome if available through Master League offline and ........ earning rewards for MyClub whilst playing Master league offline is something EA does with Fifa
PESLeague UK Official Event Admin

Official PESLeague PES2018 tournament website
https://pesleague.konami.net/2018/eu/en/

PES2019 is "the POWER of football"
User avatar
danielrh
Pundit
Pundit
 
Posts: 4163
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:04 pm
Gamertag: Vict0r Sweet
PSN: Vict0rSweet1
Twitter: @danielrhenry

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby miguelfcp » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:20 pm

Talk is cheap.
I don't care if we have a game flooded with North East Londons and Man Reds, Roberto Larcos and Fegos, I don't care if we have to play in Porto Folio, Dietro Monte Stadium or Cuito Cuanavale, or play with Castolos and Minandas in the ML. Present me a groundbreaking, innovative and realistic gameplay and you have my money.
It's pointless to keep trying to find a way to please both the myClub crowds and offline, realism-first players, if the game doesn't have a solid foundation of gameplay to build upon. Build that first, and only then it will be reasonable to discuss whether we should implement this or that in this or that game mode; if not, you get exactly what we've had the last few years - myClub becomes a poorman's Ultimate Team clone and offline modes get depleted, all of this whilst the gameplay is mediocre at best, which pleases neither side.

If Konami is still interested on feedback, this is what they have to do if they still care about creating a realistic football simulation: don't start building your house from the top. If they don't care about it, providing feedback about anything non-myClub related is pointless.
miguelfcp
Mascot
Mascot
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Quite a bit of reasoned debate in the last few pages, which I still need to catch up on, but for now, am I right in thinking that every time we log on to play, Konami gather data on what we're playing, mode wise?
User avatar
Pesmunki
International
International
 
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:28 pm

miguelfcp wrote:Talk is cheap.
I don't care if we have a game flooded with North East Londons and Man Reds, Roberto Larcos and Fegos, I don't care if we have to play in Porto Folio, Dietro Monte Stadium or Cuito Cuanavale, or play with Castolos and Minandas in the ML. Present me a groundbreaking, innovative and realistic gameplay and you have my money.
It's pointless to keep trying to find a way to please both the myClub crowds and offline, realism-first players, if the game doesn't have a solid foundation of gameplay to build upon. Build that first, and only then it will be reasonable to discuss whether we should implement this or that in this or that game mode; if not, you get exactly what we've had the last few years - myClub becomes a poorman's Ultimate Team clone and offline modes get depleted, all of this whilst the gameplay is mediocre at best, which pleases neither side.

If Konami is still interested on feedback, this is what they have to do if they still care about creating a realistic football simulation: don't start building your house from the top. If they don't care about it, providing feedback about anything non-myClub related is pointless.


Talk being cheap is actually good thing, or it can be. It's so cheap there is freedom to it. The more of it you get, the greater chance of diversifying yet uniting and homing in as a collective on something in order to improve it.

myClub, Master League, PES League. It really doesn't matter about the modes, but the football. I think there is a great deal we could put up with if the football itself was wonderfully robust to all styles, styles that are created by us and are utilised by AI against us and we use against each other.

I'll ask these questions to all:

- What if the game was released as free-to-play from the off and not a couple of months later down the line?

- What if the game we know was cut-up into pieces, leaving essentially demo mode like this year and full access to myClub as the free-to-play version?

- What if all that other content we know were bolt-ons that are purchasable? Remember, you haven't paid a penny in yet, but you can play all the football you want with it, on that demo mode, or via myClub.

- Sounds a bit risky, no? What if your first and maybe only bolt-on purchase is Master League with Edit Mode for £19.99? But you want a wee bit of Random Selection Match, so you cough-up the £3.99 for it as well. Still sitting under £25 actually spent. Do you think that is a bit of a sweet spot and would carry some realistic value?

Couple of things they could do or just aim for the stars in trying to do:

Demo Mode wouldn't be strictly offline, as Live Form Updates for the demo teams will feature. Legend Difficulty can be unlocked here as well, so you can actually still play the hardest difficulty the game has.

Demo Mode AI would be subject to cloud player data AI for the demo teams. The AI is instructed to try work out other users style with these teams from the cloud while complimenting it with their own. Yeah, you are talking learning AI there, but what better way to sample something for free that can evolve or change its game over time. You are getting access to that for free, Konami could get all that user data for free.

If users bought Master League, they would have the option to turn on or off user Cloud Data for teams, but the potential here is huge in my opinion. We all moan (including me) about team styles and stuff. The developers would still need to hold up their side of the bargain in all that, don't get me wrong, but if actual users could data could alter that AI, simply by playing it and without needing to edit stuff for other teams, then there might be a solution. I appreciate the dream is for Konami to do all that with their coding, but the best way to implement feedback could be doing it live. Yes, there is obviously the chance some teams wouldn't play exactly as their real-life counterparts, and very much a chance some teams just don't get picked, but I reckon that if we are all about that we would use teams as close to how the real side does as possible within the confines of the game. It puts it in our own hands somewhat.

That is how I think a game which has both myClub and Master League can exist. Literal Evolution Soccer, or LES :lol:
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby miguelfcp » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:40 pm

You keep hitting the same nail, it's not a matter of making myClub and Master League/other offline modes coexist. If you keep digging that hole you'll only find more dirt, because the two sides here are not myClub vs Master League crowds, it's actually realism vs fantasy football. You either have one or the other. Either you choose to build upon a foundation of a realistic simulation and you'll be able to get a larger portion of the market, or you focus on pleasing a portion of the market that prefers fantastic, yet unrealistic football and get less of it.
miguelfcp
Mascot
Mascot
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Matt10 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:02 pm

miguelfcp wrote:You keep hitting the same nail, it's not a matter of making myClub and Master League/other offline modes coexist. If you keep digging that hole you'll only find more dirt, because the two sides here are not myClub vs Master League crowds, it's actually realism vs fantasy football. You either have one or the other. Either you choose to build upon a foundation of a realistic simulation and you'll be able to get a larger portion of the market, or you focus on pleasing a portion of the market that prefers fantastic, yet unrealistic football and get less of it.


Couldn't be more true in my opinion. Well said.

Cloud data, live data, adaptive AI, it doesn't work if you don't have a proper base. That again would be an example of KONAMI putting the cart before the horse.

Football is simple. Simplify PES first, then build off of it. That is what a base is. There's no base to PES right now. I've broken it all the way down and reverse engineered it to build it back up. That's not an opinion, it's very simple. You put a player at all 40 abilities, and they feel no different than a player at 99 abilities...that's saying something. It's not just feel, it's animation, it's percentage of accuracy.

Like I said a couple pages ago, they only value that seems to differentiate players is fatigue. You will feel fatigue, and you will see the animation (legs move slower, agility is much lessened).

Talk is definitely cheap. However, talk and discussion amongst the community here is much more valuable to me. It's just good discussions that have gone on in the last couple of pages. I hope it continues. I'm also not going to be naive and think to trust KONAMI anymore though.

To use a baseball analogy:

KONAMI,

Strike 1 = PES 16,
Strike 2 = PES 17,
Strike 3 = PES 18 .

You're out.

My trust = gone.

Hire someone PLEASE. Hire someone PLEASE that is a former player, former coach, current coach, football consultant...SOMEONE. That's the only way I will ever start to trust KONAMI again.

You have about 8 months to show us, time to "Get a grip...".
User avatar
Matt10
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:22 pm
Twitter: @Matt10L

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:06 pm

The PES Casual wrote:
miguelfcp wrote:Talk is cheap.
I don't care if we have a game flooded with North East Londons and Man Reds, Roberto Larcos and Fegos, I don't care if we have to play in Porto Folio, Dietro Monte Stadium or Cuito Cuanavale, or play with Castolos and Minandas in the ML. Present me a groundbreaking, innovative and realistic gameplay and you have my money.
It's pointless to keep trying to find a way to please both the myClub crowds and offline, realism-first players, if the game doesn't have a solid foundation of gameplay to build upon. Build that first, and only then it will be reasonable to discuss whether we should implement this or that in this or that game mode; if not, you get exactly what we've had the last few years - myClub becomes a poorman's Ultimate Team clone and offline modes get depleted, all of this whilst the gameplay is mediocre at best, which pleases neither side.

If Konami is still interested on feedback, this is what they have to do if they still care about creating a realistic football simulation: don't start building your house from the top. If they don't care about it, providing feedback about anything non-myClub related is pointless.


Talk being cheap is actually good thing, or it can be. It's so cheap there is freedom to it. The more of it you get, the greater chance of diversifying yet uniting and homing in as a collective on something in order to improve it.

myClub, Master League, PES League. It really doesn't matter about the modes, but the football. I think there is a great deal we could put up with if the football itself was wonderfully robust to all styles, styles that are created by us and are utilised by AI against us and we use against each other.

I'll ask these questions to all:

- What if the game was released as free-to-play from the off and not a couple of months later down the line?

- What if the game we know was cut-up into pieces, leaving essentially demo mode like this year and full access to myClub as the free-to-play version?

- What if all that other content we know were bolt-ons that are purchasable? Remember, you haven't paid a penny in yet, but you can play all the football you want with it, on that demo mode, or via myClub.

- Sounds a bit risky, no? What if your first and maybe only bolt-on purchase is Master League with Edit Mode for £19.99? But you want a wee bit of Random Selection Match, so you cough-up the £3.99 for it as well. Still sitting under £25 actually spent. Do you think that is a bit of a sweet spot and would carry some realistic value?

Couple of things they could do or just aim for the stars in trying to do:

Demo Mode wouldn't be strictly offline, as Live Form Updates for the demo teams will feature. Legend Difficulty can be unlocked here as well, so you can actually still play the hardest difficulty the game has.

Demo Mode AI would be subject to cloud player data AI for the demo teams. The AI is instructed to try work out other users style with these teams from the cloud while complimenting it with their own. Yeah, you are talking learning AI there, but what better way to sample something for free that can evolve or change its game over time. You are getting access to that for free, Konami could get all that user data for free.

If users bought Master League, they would have the option to turn on or off user Cloud Data for teams, but the potential here is huge in my opinion. We all moan (including me) about team styles and stuff. The developers would still need to hold up their side of the bargain in all that, don't get me wrong, but if actual users could data could alter that AI, simply by playing it and without needing to edit stuff for other teams, then there might be a solution. I appreciate the dream is for Konami to do all that with their coding, but the best way to implement feedback could be doing it live. Yes, there is obviously the chance some teams wouldn't play exactly as their real-life counterparts, and very much a chance some teams just don't get picked, but I reckon that if we are all about that we would use teams as close to how the real side does as possible within the confines of the game. It puts it in our own hands somewhat.

That is how I think a game which has both myClub and Master League can exist. Literal Evolution Soccer, or LES :lol:


Either the PES Casual knows more than he's letting on, or this is a thinly veiled attempt to soften up the "hard core" community for what is in the Konami pipeline...

Let's look at the clues, as Keith Lemon would say...

This sounds very much like what the one and only Kojima (before he parted company with Konami) hinted at in an interview piece he gave to Edge magazine way back when 2014 was boarding the pre-release hype train, (anyone remember?) think I've still got it stashed somewhere. Anyway, the piece in Edge was introducing the new Fox engine etc. and in the very next article, he gave an interview where he was predicting producers giving the game base away as a freebie, then charging for separate content. This is not a coincidence...

Then Adam says we want to "shock" fans with some new directions etc.

This is not a coincidence...

Better get ready boys, it's coming!!!

You ain't the priority any more, if you ever were!!!

:lol:
User avatar
Pesmunki
International
International
 
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:09 pm

Matt10 wrote:
miguelfcp wrote:You keep hitting the same nail, it's not a matter of making myClub and Master League/other offline modes coexist. If you keep digging that hole you'll only find more dirt, because the two sides here are not myClub vs Master League crowds, it's actually realism vs fantasy football. You either have one or the other. Either you choose to build upon a foundation of a realistic simulation and you'll be able to get a larger portion of the market, or you focus on pleasing a portion of the market that prefers fantastic, yet unrealistic football and get less of it.


Couldn't be more true in my opinion. Well said.

Cloud data, live data, adaptive AI, it doesn't work if you don't have a proper base. That again would be an example of KONAMI putting the cart before the horse.

Football is simple. Simplify PES first, then build off of it. That is what a base is. There's no base to PES right now. I've broken it all the way down and reverse engineered it to build it back up. That's not an opinion, it's very simple. You put a player at all 40 abilities, and they feel no different than a player at 99 abilities...that's saying something. It's not just feel, it's animation, it's percentage of accuracy.

Like I said a couple pages ago, they only value that seems to differentiate players is fatigue. You will feel fatigue, and you will see the animation (legs move slower, agility is much lessened).

Talk is definitely cheap. However, talk and discussion amongst the community here is much more valuable to me. It's just good discussions that have gone on in the last couple of pages. I hope it continues. I'm also not going to be naive and think to trust KONAMI anymore though.

To use a baseball analogy:

KONAMI,

Strike 1 = PES 16,
Strike 2 = PES 17,
Strike 3 = PES 18 .

You're out.

My trust = gone.

Hire someone PLEASE. Hire someone PLEASE that is a former player, former coach, current coach, football consultant...SOMEONE. That's the only way I will ever start to trust KONAMI again.

You have about 8 months to show us, time to "Get a grip...".



This is complete nonsense. You ain't reversed engineered "Jack shit" !!! FFS!! Move on...
User avatar
Pesmunki
International
International
 
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby bigol83 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:28 pm

It's not true that 40 rated players are the same as 99 rated players.

There are some attributes that are less noticeable than before, like passing, crossing and shooting, but physical attributes are still very much present. The most noticeable attribute is explosive power, that is the old Agility stat. Also physical contact and Body control are important, together with player skills.

I feel that the game is losing player individuality year after year but we are still not at the point where a 40 rated player is effective as a 99 rated player.
bigol83
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 10:49 am
Twitter: @bigol83

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:07 am

Matt10 wrote:

To use a baseball analogy:

KONAMI,

Strike 1 = PES 16,
Strike 2 = PES 17,
Strike 3 = PES 18 .

You're out.

My trust = gone.

Hire someone PLEASE. Hire someone PLEASE that is a former player, former coach, current coach, football consultant...SOMEONE. That's the only way I will ever start to trust KONAMI again.

You have about 8 months to show us, time to "Get a grip...".


What makes you think Konami gives a rat's arse whether you trust them again or not?!!! :lol: Laughable!
User avatar
Pesmunki
International
International
 
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:12 am

So just to be clear Matt, you think there is no player individuality at all bar fatigue?

Can you kindly explain to me why then there are threads in other fairly active communities that are dedicated to white/bronze gems? Maybe explain why certain players like M. Acuna, Fosu-Mensah, Umpamecano, Alan, Abdulrahman, Andre Almeida, Renato Sanches, Joao Carvalho among many others have a near-cult status on account of their ability or their development? Why there are players who play white-ball or bronze ball exclusively? Silver *insert position here* threads? Talk of getting a "feel" for certain players? Scouts for Roger Martinez' Chinese club before recently moving to Villareal being a wee bit pricey considering?

How about offline myClub players. There are a good few out there of those too. Dudes who just like cloud matches with their squad against other users fantasy football squads and venture online rarely. What about them? Are you saying they are just managing fatigue and nothing else? Are you saying they are all anti-sim maniacs?

All this is driven by no more than fatigue?

Remove all these 40 OVR players of yours to their bare bones. Rid them all of their skills, playing styles and take all their weights down by 10kg minimum across the board. Stick your 40 overall players with lowest possible form against Super Star level AI form on the highest setting, and with all the players abilities and skills intact.

Take Roger Martinez, and have him lose 15kg and take all his other attributes away from him. I guarantee you he would not be the same player as the default in control and ability and would feel a hell of a lot more clumsy to boot than his default.

pesmunki - there was no need for that. Come on. We can disagree and debate respectfully and if you have to be dismissive try do so using your own experience. I disagree massively with Matt here, but he wants the same thing as you or I do at the end of the day. There is a clash on how to go about doing that is all. No need for the aggression.
The PES Casual
Youth Team
Youth Team
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:25 am

The PES Casual wrote:So just to be clear Matt, you think there is no player individuality at all bar fatigue?

Can you kindly explain to me why then there are threads in other fairly active communities that are dedicated to white/bronze gems? Maybe explain why certain players like M. Acuna, Fosu-Mensah, Umpamecano, Alan, Abdulrahman, Andre Almeida, Renato Sanches, Joao Carvalho among many others have a near-cult status on account of their ability or their development? Why there are players who play white-ball or bronze ball exclusively? Silver *insert position here* threads? Talk of getting a "feel" for certain players? Scouts for Roger Martinez' Chinese club before recently moving to Villareal being a wee bit pricey considering?

How about offline myClub players. There are a good few out there of those too. Dudes who just like cloud matches with their squad against other users fantasy football squads and venture online rarely. What about them? Are you saying they are just managing fatigue and nothing else? Are you saying they are all anti-sim maniacs?

All this is driven by no more than fatigue?

Remove all these 40 OVR players of yours to their bare bones. Rid them all of their skills, playing styles and take all their weights down by 10kg minimum across the board. Stick your 40 overall players with lowest possible form against Super Star level AI form on the highest setting, and with all the players abilities and skills intact.

Take Roger Martinez, and have him lose 15kg and take all his other attributes away from him. I guarantee you he would not be the same player as the default in control and ability and would feel a hell of a lot more clumsy to boot than his default.

pesmunki - there was no need for that. Come on. We can disagree and debate respectfully and if you have to be dismissive try do so using your own experience. I disagree massively with Matt here, but he wants the same thing as you or I do at the end of the day. There is a clash on how to go about doing that is all. No need for the aggression.


Fair play, but I've been there 'n' done that over the last couple of years, using my experience to disagree. Even got some serious kudos from others for doing so. I love what you're trying to do man, seriously. This place needs some proper shake down, but it's been like talking to a wall in here for about a year, which is why I took a break. Single minded agendas are everywhere, if you can cut through that, hat's off to ya! ;)
User avatar
Pesmunki
International
International
 
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:32 pm
Location: Sheffield
PSN: cogs67

PreviousNext

Return to PES & WE News / Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron