PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

News from the Pro Evolution / Winning Eleven gaming world, discussions from the posts on WinningElevenBlog.com and general PES & WE discussions

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Matt10 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:28 am

The PES Casual wrote:So just to be clear Matt, you think there is no player individuality at all bar fatigue?

Can you kindly explain to me why then there are threads in other fairly active communities that are dedicated to white/bronze gems? Maybe explain why certain players like M. Acuna, Fosu-Mensah, Umpamecano, Alan, Abdulrahman, Andre Almeida, Renato Sanches, Joao Carvalho among many others have a near-cult status on account of their ability or their development? Why there are players who play white-ball or bronze ball exclusively? Silver *insert position here* threads? Talk of getting a "feel" for certain players? Scouts for Roger Martinez' Chinese club before recently moving to Villareal being a wee bit pricey considering?

How about offline myClub players. There are a good few out there of those too. Dudes who just like cloud matches with their squad against other users fantasy football squads and venture online rarely. What about them? Are you saying they are just managing fatigue and nothing else? Are you saying they are all anti-sim maniacs?

All this is driven by no more than fatigue?

Remove all these 40 OVR players of yours to their bare bones. Rid them all of their skills, playing styles and take all their weights down by 10kg minimum across the board. Stick your 40 overall players with lowest possible form against Super Star level AI form on the highest setting, and with all the players abilities and skills intact.

Take Roger Martinez, and have him lose 15kg and take all his other attributes away from him. I guarantee you he would not be the same player as the default in control and ability and would feel a hell of a lot more clumsy to boot than his default.

pesmunki - there was no need for that. Come on. We can disagree and debate respectfully and if you have to be dismissive try do so using your own experience. I disagree massively with Matt here, but he wants the same thing as you or I do at the end of the day. There is a clash on how to go about doing that is all. No need for the aggression.


Yes, Alan, I am. Have you tried to play with a team at all 40's, then play with them all at 99's? I have. Fatigue is the biggest contributor.

I'm not saying the concept of OVR and ratings to an off-the-pitch mentality isn't valued. It's flawed. Those numbers are just an addition problem. It's off-the-pitch MyClub that makes no difference.

You also know I'm talking strictly offline. I don't think it's an apples:apples comparison for MyClub against other human beings. The power of super-cancel among users is one that skews the determination.

I stick to my lane, Alan. I've spent all my time in offline. MyClub/online doesn't interest me. I can say I beat a guy who was using PSG, and I used Independiente. I don't make any determinations here other than the guy didn't finish his chances and I did, and played better. That helps noone.

There's no trigger to PES right now. It's got layers and layers of uncessary fluff, and at the very bottom of that is player abilities. From there, the player abilities really don't mean much difference. By scale if you take a 40 passer vs a 99 passer, what is the animation that should appear? How should that ball feel coming off the 40 player's foot? Why are they able to kick at the same velocity, accuracy and consistency as the 99? What about shooting? Crossing? Speed? Defending? Ball winning?

I'm not being stubborn, and I'm not being close-minded. I'm being frustrated by the blind defending of what has already been proven to be false. False of logic and false of any form of realism. The decision making in this game is flawed.

Again though, I'm responding to you out of respect, Alan. I've already seen this firsthand, and other guys have done the same with me. I know I'm not crazy and neither are they. The intent is always to improve the game, but I'm just so tired of having to do the work to find out it means nothing at the end of the day. Just so tired.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 am

Matt10 wrote:

Yes, Alan, I am. Have you tried to play with a team at all 40's, then play with them all at 99's?



Why on earth would anyone take the time to adjust the game in a way that would remove the very individuality that is in PES? A whole team at 40? Well you've just removed the game's core individuality!

Play an online quick match with say Monaco, then play one with PSG. You will feel the difference immediately.

You are talking nonsense. And you have no idea, whatsoever about the code that Konami use. None.

Cheers

;)
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby The PES Casual » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:04 am

miguelfcp wrote:You keep hitting the same nail, it's not a matter of making myClub and Master League/other offline modes coexist. If you keep digging that hole you'll only find more dirt, because the two sides here are not myClub vs Master League crowds, it's actually realism vs fantasy football. You either have one or the other. Either you choose to build upon a foundation of a realistic simulation and you'll be able to get a larger portion of the market, or you focus on pleasing a portion of the market that prefers fantastic, yet unrealistic football and get less of it.


There has never been an example of this, ever. Certainly not one that is provable in the last 18 years or so.

When the PS2 hardware was doing crazy numbers, FIFA still outsold PES consistently. If FIFA18 was actually PES18, and vice versa, you really think all those FIFA players would've instantly switched to PES? Ignoring licenses for a moment? Hell, I even allow you the "PES version" of FIFA in this to be shorn of all it's licensing bar those that feature in PES, but still have the same number of leagues and players, and for the "FIFA version" of PES to be fully licensed. You are honestly trying to tell me that would see folk gravitate towards PES, because it has FIFA's gameplay?

You may not have said it directly but you are inferring that FIFA is more realistic and that is why most people play it.

And I still think the fantasy football charge, regards the actual football that is played as being the rule, does not stand up in my own experiences with the game. I know I absolutely can find that online if I wanted to by switching filters off or trying to play with a squad that consists exclusively of gold and black ball players, but if I sit on a level 3 and below squad I know I can face-up against like-minded opponents fairly easily. I apply my own rules to ensure I get that simulation experience as often as possible. I use Advanced Shooting offline and online, and in online I am one of a rare breed, and that I am making things difficult for myself, partly through what it requires me to do, and partly because having that level of control over a shot means my imagination can actually work against me. I use my own "sliders" except they are called "options". There is both good and bad to that being the case.

What type of shooting control do you use? If you say Basic yet bemoan shot variety then you are your own worst enemy there. Basic means "basic". The AI is boss using basic shooting, not the player, and saying it shouldn't be like that is denying it what it is and is intended to be, that being Basic. It has nowhere near the level of feel that Advanced Shooting does. Even manual shooting sacrifices you having a level of control that using Advanced Shooting can offer.

I'm not looking to be confrontational here with this post, merely state how I play and why I do feel like I am getting a simulation experience. Yep, even in myClub. Even online.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby miguelfcp » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:06 am

PES' sales decline over the last ten years is real, and as I've written before, it's due to the erosion of the core principle behind Konami's vision for the game: its gameplay. Because of it, they lost a great portion of the market - and an even greater portion of their own established market, vis-a-vis, the hardcore long-time fans of the game. Only now they're picking up some pace, this time trying to rebuild their own market with online-first players rather than pleasing simulation-first, offline, "old-school" players.

You certainly talk alot about PES' rival. I didn't even mention it, besides its money-grabbing mode. And I don't think you've made your point clear in your first paragraph, maybe my english is too rusty, but I find it confusing. Anyways, I did propose a deal to Konami to build a foundation of realistic gameplay first and foremost, regardless of what the rival from EA is doing right now, of which I simply do not give a **** about.
Whatsmore, we're on a PES discussion topic, so I'd be happy to share my thoughts on that timeless PES vs FIFA literally anywhere else than here. What I can say, and it's the only thing I'll add on that particular topic, is that neither of them present accurate representations of the sport...they're not even close.

Oh, there's so much more to football than just the act of shooting, you're barely noticing the tip of the iceberg. It's an ever more tactical, chess-like sport that's moving in a completely opposite direction of Konami's free-flow, fast-paced "simulation". I wish the problem with modern football gaming was as simple as turning "advanced whatever option" on or off. It's not. Again, and I repeat myself, what it needs is a complete direction shift, a completely different foundation for its gameplay - and messing around with shooting or passing controls, even assisted/manual controls to achieve a "not-that-crappy" simulation is, as I've said in my previous post, building your house from the top. I don't blame you or anyone else who is passionate enough about the game and tries by all means to get a more realistic experience out of it but I'm sorry, put away all of your delusions because the game we have in 2018 is NOT an accurate depiction of football, and only after Konami comes to this realization it will be possible to build anew and build a great football game. Otherwise, it's the merry-go-round process of hype - disappointment - building hype - hype - disappointment of the 2010s all over again and I don't think anyone here wants to go through that once more.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby peskev » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:58 am

I challenge anyone here to see if they can find anything more realistic than these videos. (and I'm talking clips of reasonable length showing build up etc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ER-sG883x4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aFZroZXe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eI_IUBhJyI

Because you are simulating a 90 minute match in 12 minutes or so, you will never get a match which plays totally identical to real life. You would be lucky to see more than 1 goal each game.

Sure they have an issue with not enough fouls but this should be an easy fix for them. FIFA on the other hand is so unbalanced this year. There is no midfield and the tactical defending system allows a fast passing team to ping pong their way through each time. A big part of their match tuning is to turn keepers into supermen in order to keep scores from getting into double figures most games.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Timtc10 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:01 am

peskev wrote:I challenge anyone here to see if they can find anything more realistic than these videos. (and I'm talking clips of reasonable length showing build up etc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ER-sG883x4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aFZroZXe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eI_IUBhJyI

Because you are simulating a 90 minute match in 12 minutes or so, you will never get a match which plays totally identical to real life. You would be lucky to see more than 1 goal each game.

Sure they have an issue with not enough fouls but this should be an easy fix for them. FIFA on the other hand is so unbalanced this year. There is no midfield and the tactical defending system allows a fast passing team to ping pong their way through each time. A big part of their match tuning is to turn keepers into supermen in order to keep scores from getting into double figures most games.


The first minute of the video the guy says “the shooting is amazing and so satisfying” and also says “the goalkeepers are amazing”... come on man :lol:

I agree that you can cherry pick clips in 2018 that make it looks really good and realistic but if you play the game, it only looks that good 50% of the time. Not good enough!
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby twobobpeeters » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:30 am

Interesting few pages untill pesmunki came along and took a shit in the forum.

Regarding Alan's theory in his long post, which hypothetically sounds awful by the way although not here to discuss that in depth, i just wanted to know something about PES lite as it is right now. If you are an exclusively myclub player, are there any disadvantages on waiting the month or two and playing PESlite rather than the full game? What I mean is, do you get the full myclub experience in the free version of the game? And therefore if you wanted to right now you could effectively save yourself 40£ just by waiting a month or two for the free version is that correct?
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby bigol83 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:56 am

Timtc10 wrote:
peskev wrote:I challenge anyone here to see if they can find anything more realistic than these videos. (and I'm talking clips of reasonable length showing build up etc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ER-sG883x4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aFZroZXe4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eI_IUBhJyI

Because you are simulating a 90 minute match in 12 minutes or so, you will never get a match which plays totally identical to real life. You would be lucky to see more than 1 goal each game.

Sure they have an issue with not enough fouls but this should be an easy fix for them. FIFA on the other hand is so unbalanced this year. There is no midfield and the tactical defending system allows a fast passing team to ping pong their way through each time. A big part of their match tuning is to turn keepers into supermen in order to keep scores from getting into double figures most games.


The first minute of the video the guy says “the shooting is amazing and so satisfying” and also says “the goalkeepers are amazing”... come on man :lol:

I agree that you can cherry pick clips in 2018 that make it looks really good and realistic but if you play the game, it only looks that good 50% of the time. Not good enough!


Honestly i think some people on here go way to extreme making Pes appear as complete trash, there is middle ground you know. It has plenty of awful issues but goalkeepers are not one of them.

Indeed goalkeepers in Pes 2018 are really really good: animations, reactions, saves. They are problematic on 1vs1, they tend to stick to the goal line but in general they are definitely a positive of Pes 2018.

The shooting is not satisfying or amazing because it lacks trajectory variations, often the ball travels in straight line, they are too powerful, shooting animations are not varied enough, the whole shooting situation is not varied enough in Pes. It's boring.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby twobobpeeters » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 pm

Agreed with bigol, at least in comparison with previous years the keepers are a massive Improvement in the last two games. The shooting is just dire though
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby chilleverest » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:12 pm

twobobpeeters wrote:Agreed with bigol, at least in comparison with previous years the keepers are a massive Improvement in the last two games. The shooting is just dire though

The keepers are good because the shots are too similar and limited. Add the shots variety of fifa in pes and the keeper wont have half of the animations to save.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby bigol83 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:28 pm

chilleverest wrote:
twobobpeeters wrote:Agreed with bigol, at least in comparison with previous years the keepers are a massive Improvement in the last two games. The shooting is just dire though

The keepers are good because the shots are too similar and limited. Add the shots variety of fifa in pes and the keeper wont have half of the animations to save.


Playing manual shooting shots are not limited at all, you can target every part of the goal, yet keepers keep making good saves.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby Pesmunki » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:35 pm

twobobpeeters wrote:Interesting few pages untill pesmunki came along and took a shit in the forum.


In your lofty opinion! Simply pointing out nonsense when it appears.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby chilleverest » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 pm

bigol83 wrote:
chilleverest wrote:
twobobpeeters wrote:Agreed with bigol, at least in comparison with previous years the keepers are a massive Improvement in the last two games. The shooting is just dire though

The keepers are good because the shots are too similar and limited. Add the shots variety of fifa in pes and the keeper wont have half of the animations to save.


Playing manual shooting shots are not limited at all, you can target every part of the goal, yet keepers keep making good saves.

Don't think the manual in 2018 is as good as in 2016. Its manual in paper, but its still too assisted.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 12)

Postby miguelfcp » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:20 pm

If you think you can assess how realistic the reproduction of football in a game is through a couple of youtube videos showing goal highlights, then you absolutely deserve the product you currently have.
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